[gentoo-user] Hard drive and PWDIS or pin 3 power disable/reset.

[Dale]

Howdy,

I ordered another hard drive, yup, I keep filling them up.  Anyway, it
looks like a shucked drive but may not be.  I tried to find out if there
is a way to know if a drive has that pin 3 problem or not but no luck. 
It did power up after I hooked it to a old system with a molex to sata
power adapter.  Then the SMART tests went wonky, bad wonky.  This is
what it showed. 


NAS2 ~ # smartctl -a /dev/sdb
smartctl 7.4 2023-08-01 r5530 [x86_64-linux-6.8.7-gentoo] (local build)
Copyright (C) 2002-23, Bruce Allen, Christian Franke, www.smartmontools.org

=== START OF INFORMATION SECTION ===
Device Model:     ST16000NM000D
Serial Number:    ZVTC8V09
LU WWN Device Id: 5 000c50 0e79eb73e
Firmware Version: SN03
User Capacity:    16,000,900,661,248 bytes [16.0 TB]
Sector Size:      512 bytes logical/physical
Rotation Rate:    7200 rpm
Device is:        Not in smartctl database 7.3/5528
ATA Version is:   ATA8-ACS T13/1699-D revision 4
SATA Version is:  SATA 3.0, 6.0 Gb/s
Local Time is:    Mon May  6 15:51:00 2024 CDT
SMART support is: Available - device has SMART capability.
SMART support is: Enabled

Read SMART Data failed: scsi error device not ready

=== START OF READ SMART DATA SECTION ===
SMART Status command failed: scsi error badly formed scsi parameters
SMART overall-health self-assessment test result: UNKNOWN!
SMART Status, Attributes and Thresholds cannot be read.

Read SMART Log Directory failed: scsi error device not ready

Read SMART Error Log failed: scsi error device not ready

Read SMART Self-test Log failed: scsi error device not ready

Selective Self-tests/Logging not supported

NAS2 ~ #


Does anyone know what it looks like when a drive has that PWDIS feature
and the drive is disabled?  Does it look like that?  The drive would not
power up at all on my main rig or my NAS box but with the molex to sata
cable on the old Dell Inspiron, NAS@ box, it did power up but was really
slow to be seen and SMART shows the above.  Either way, PWDIS feature or
just a DOA drive, it won't work in my main rig which is where I want it
to go.  I requested a refund.  I'll buy one I can do more research on
next time. 

I'm mostly just curious on this.  I've never actually had a drive with
the PWDIS pin.  Other than I've read they don't power up at all, I have
no idea how they respond or if they respond at all.  I figure someone on
the list has seen one.  If this is how they behave, I'll know next
time.  If they just off period, then a bad drive.

Thanks.

Dale

:-)  :-) 

[William Kenworthy]

See https://www.disctech.com/powerdisable

BillK

Post by Dale
Howdy,
I ordered another hard drive, yup, I keep filling them up.  Anyway, it
looks like a shucked drive but may not be.  I tried to find out if there
is a way to know if a drive has that pin 3 problem or not but no luck.
It did power up after I hooked it to a old system with a molex to sata
power adapter.  Then the SMART tests went wonky, bad wonky.  This is
what it showed.
NAS2 ~ # smartctl -a /dev/sdb
smartctl 7.4 2023-08-01 r5530 [x86_64-linux-6.8.7-gentoo] (local build)
Copyright (C) 2002-23, Bruce Allen, Christian Franke, www.smartmontools.org
=== START OF INFORMATION SECTION ===
Device Model:     ST16000NM000D
Serial Number:    ZVTC8V09
LU WWN Device Id: 5 000c50 0e79eb73e
Firmware Version: SN03
User Capacity:    16,000,900,661,248 bytes [16.0 TB]
Sector Size:      512 bytes logical/physical
Rotation Rate:    7200 rpm
Device is:        Not in smartctl database 7.3/5528
ATA Version is:   ATA8-ACS T13/1699-D revision 4
SATA Version is:  SATA 3.0, 6.0 Gb/s
Local Time is:    Mon May  6 15:51:00 2024 CDT
SMART support is: Available - device has SMART capability.
SMART support is: Enabled
Read SMART Data failed: scsi error device not ready
=== START OF READ SMART DATA SECTION ===
SMART Status command failed: scsi error badly formed scsi parameters
SMART overall-health self-assessment test result: UNKNOWN!
SMART Status, Attributes and Thresholds cannot be read.
Read SMART Log Directory failed: scsi error device not ready
Read SMART Error Log failed: scsi error device not ready
Read SMART Self-test Log failed: scsi error device not ready
Selective Self-tests/Logging not supported
NAS2 ~ #
Does anyone know what it looks like when a drive has that PWDIS feature
and the drive is disabled?  Does it look like that?  The drive would not
power up at all on my main rig or my NAS box but with the molex to sata
slow to be seen and SMART shows the above.  Either way, PWDIS feature or
just a DOA drive, it won't work in my main rig which is where I want it
to go.  I requested a refund.  I'll buy one I can do more research on
next time.
I'm mostly just curious on this.  I've never actually had a drive with
the PWDIS pin.  Other than I've read they don't power up at all, I have
no idea how they respond or if they respond at all.  I figure someone on
the list has seen one.  If this is how they behave, I'll know next
time.  If they just off period, then a bad drive.
Thanks.
Dale
:-)  :-)

[Dale]

Post by William Kenworthy
See https://www.disctech.com/powerdisable
BillK

I'm aware of what it is and the cable part.  I was curious what it looks
like to BIOS and the OS when one is connected and that pin has the drive
disabled.  From what I've read in some places, the drive doesn't power
up at all.  I've seen some claim it shows up but you can't access it. 
I've read different explanations of what the drive does and maybe it
varies from one maker to another.  What I was hoping for, someone on
this list has connected a drive with that pin disabling the drive and
can confirm what I posted is what it looks like or explain what the
system does when one is connected. 

When I connected that drive to my NAS box, it was very slow to go
through the BIOS post and where it usually lists the connected drives,
only the drive with the OS showed up.  When connected to the older Dell
rig, it booted up normally.  It doesn't list connected drives like the
NAS box does.  It did show up in /proc/partitions.  The SMART command
showed a different story.  It makes it look like the drive has power but
may not be spinning up.  It can get the info such as model number,
serial number, capacity and other info but can't read the SMART data,
which I assume is written to the platter part of the drive.  I'm not
sure on that tho.  What I don't know, is that because of the PWDIS pin
or has nothing to do with it. 

As it is, the seller agreed to take the drive back.  If the seller says
the drive works for them, I guess it has that PWDIS feature.  If it
doesn't work for them, just a bad drive, perhaps damaged in shipping or
something.  I'm just curious as to how a drive behaves when it has that
PWDIS pin and the drive is disabled. 

I did notice in the pic on your link that the new power connector has 5
wires.  It has the PWDIS ability.  Mine has 4 wires.  However, I've read
that on the older systems, the pins inside the connector apply power to
pin 3 which disables the drives.  Mine doesn't have that extra wire but
I don't think that really matters.  Maybe I need to put a voltmeter on
the connector and see if there is anything on pin 3 or not.  I suspect
there is tho. 

Has anyone had one of these drives connected and remember what the
system reports when disabled??  What clues it gives that shows it is
disabled if any??

Dale

:-)  :-) 

[Michael]

Post by William Kenworthy
See https://www.disctech.com/powerdisable
BillK

I'm aware of what it is and the cable part. I was curious what it looks
like to BIOS and the OS when one is connected and that pin has the drive
disabled. From what I've read in some places, the drive doesn't power
up at all. I've seen some claim it shows up but you can't access it.
I've read different explanations of what the drive does and maybe it
varies from one maker to another. What I was hoping for, someone on
this list has connected a drive with that pin disabling the drive and
can confirm what I posted is what it looks like or explain what the
system does when one is connected.
When I connected that drive to my NAS box, it was very slow to go
through the BIOS post and where it usually lists the connected drives,
only the drive with the OS showed up. When connected to the older Dell
rig, it booted up normally. It doesn't list connected drives like the
NAS box does. It did show up in /proc/partitions. The SMART command
showed a different story. It makes it look like the drive has power but
may not be spinning up. It can get the info such as model number,
serial number, capacity and other info but can't read the SMART data,
which I assume is written to the platter part of the drive. I'm not
sure on that tho. What I don't know, is that because of the PWDIS pin
or has nothing to do with it.
As it is, the seller agreed to take the drive back. If the seller says
the drive works for them, I guess it has that PWDIS feature. If it
doesn't work for them, just a bad drive, perhaps damaged in shipping or
something. I'm just curious as to how a drive behaves when it has that
PWDIS pin and the drive is disabled.
I did notice in the pic on your link that the new power connector has 5
wires. It has the PWDIS ability. Mine has 4 wires. However, I've read
that on the older systems, the pins inside the connector apply power to
pin 3 which disables the drives. Mine doesn't have that extra wire but
I don't think that really matters. Maybe I need to put a voltmeter on
the connector and see if there is anything on pin 3 or not. I suspect
there is tho.
Has anyone had one of these drives connected and remember what the
system reports when disabled?? What clues it gives that shows it is
disabled if any??
Dale
:-) :-)

I don't have a drive like this, but as I understand it when the drive receives
voltage on pin 3 it powers down. This requires a MoBo and firmware which
supports such a function - probably unlikely to be found on consumer kit.

https://documents.westerndigital.com/content/dam/doc-library/en_us/assets/
public/western-digital/collateral/tech-brief/tech-brief-western-digital-power-
disable-pin.pdf

If the drive does not spin up, you could try to insulate pin 3 with
electrician's tape and see if the disk spins up, or use a molex power adaptor
as already discussed. Usually you can feel the disk vibrating when powering
up.

Since you managed to make it spin but smartclt barfs, I would think there is
something wrong with it. Either way, life is too short to bother with disks
which do not work as you reasonably expect them to work. RMA it and/or buy a
different disk after you confirm its replacement does not come with a PWDIS
feature.

[Rich Freeman]

Post by Michael

I'm aware of what it is and the cable part. I was curious what it looks
like to BIOS and the OS when one is connected and that pin has the drive
disabled. From what I've read in some places, the drive doesn't power
up at all.

I don't have a drive like this, but as I understand it when the drive receives
voltage on pin 3 it powers down. This requires a MoBo and firmware which
supports such a function - probably unlikely to be found on consumer kit.

I have had these drives. If the drive is connected to many ATX power
supplies via a standard cable, the drive simply will not be detected
by the computer. With some power supplies it will work fine. It all
depends on whether the power supply follows the original SATA spec, or
was designed to be compatible with enterprise drives which use the
revised spec, which isn't backwards compatible (I don't know who the
genius was who had that idea).

In order to actually toggle the reset line you need SOMETHING able to
switch the line in-between the drive and the PSU. That might be a
motherboard (especially with the newer trend towards running all the
power through the motherboard), or some other accessory card. Unless
the HBA provides the power it won't be there.

However, you don't need any fancy hardware for the drive to just work
- that is only needed to send the hardware reset to the drive. All
you need is to not have that pin powered. That just means the right
power supply, the right cable, the right adapter, or some improvised
solution (tape over the pin is a common one).

In any case, if the pin is the problem, the drive simply won't be
detected. Your SATA issues are due to something else. It might be a
bad drive, an incompatibility (maybe the drive isn't in the
smartmontools database yet), or maybe an issue with the HBA (for USB
HBAs in particular you often need to pass command line parameters as
there apparently isn't a standard way to pass these commands over
USB). I doubt the power line is your problem.

As far as shucked drives go - that is typically indicated by the
label/model. If it isn't branded in any way it may have been shucked.
That shouldn't be a problem as long as you don't have the power issue
- the drive might simply be bad.

[Dale]

Post by Rich Freeman

Post by Michael

I'm aware of what it is and the cable part. I was curious what it looks
like to BIOS and the OS when one is connected and that pin has the drive
disabled. From what I've read in some places, the drive doesn't power
up at all.

I don't have a drive like this, but as I understand it when the drive receives
voltage on pin 3 it powers down. This requires a MoBo and firmware which
supports such a function - probably unlikely to be found on consumer kit.

I have had these drives. If the drive is connected to many ATX power
supplies via a standard cable, the drive simply will not be detected
by the computer. With some power supplies it will work fine. It all
depends on whether the power supply follows the original SATA spec, or
was designed to be compatible with enterprise drives which use the
revised spec, which isn't backwards compatible (I don't know who the
genius was who had that idea).
In order to actually toggle the reset line you need SOMETHING able to
switch the line in-between the drive and the PSU. That might be a
motherboard (especially with the newer trend towards running all the
power through the motherboard), or some other accessory card. Unless
the HBA provides the power it won't be there.
However, you don't need any fancy hardware for the drive to just work
- that is only needed to send the hardware reset to the drive. All
you need is to not have that pin powered. That just means the right
power supply, the right cable, the right adapter, or some improvised
solution (tape over the pin is a common one).
In any case, if the pin is the problem, the drive simply won't be
detected. Your SATA issues are due to something else. It might be a
bad drive, an incompatibility (maybe the drive isn't in the
smartmontools database yet), or maybe an issue with the HBA (for USB
HBAs in particular you often need to pass command line parameters as
there apparently isn't a standard way to pass these commands over
USB). I doubt the power line is your problem.
As far as shucked drives go - that is typically indicated by the
label/model. If it isn't branded in any way it may have been shucked.
That shouldn't be a problem as long as you don't have the power issue
- the drive might simply be bad.

So, since the drive wasn't seen at all on my main rig or the NAS box,
with a straight sata power connector, then it likely has the PWDIS pin. 
On those two rigs, the drive wasn't seen at all not even in the BIOS. 
Since it was seen on the old Dell rig with a molex  sata adapter but
SMART spit out a lot of errors, then the drive is bad.  Now that makes
sense and was kinda what I was thinking but not sure about.  Not only
did I get a drive with the PWDIS feature, I got a bad drive as well. 
While the box had no damage at all, it doesn't mean it didn't get hit or
dropped and was damaged or went bad some other way. 

My take on this for future reference.  If a drive isn't seen at all even
by BIOS, either the drive is completely dead or it has the PWDIS feature. 

Oh, I wonder to about the genius who forgot to make this new feature
backward compatible.  I hope someone Gibbs smacks him real good.  Maybe
twice. 

Now to avoid buying another one of these drives again.  I really wish
sellers who should know would put in the description or list of features
that the drive has PWDIS.  After all, most buyers of small quantities of
drives likely can't use that feature.  The ones who do likely buy in
bulk since they putting them in large systems. 

Thanks to all.  I knew there would be someone on this list who actually
had one of these things. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

[Dale]

Post by Dale
Now to avoid buying another one of these drives again.  I really wish
sellers who should know would put in the description or list of features
that the drive has PWDIS.  After all, most buyers of small quantities of
drives likely can't use that feature.  The ones who do likely buy in
bulk since they putting them in large systems. 
Thanks to all.  I knew there would be someone on this list who actually
had one of these things. 
Dale
:-)  :-) 

I'm looking at buying another drive.  I'm trying to avoid buying one
with the PWDIS pin.  I'm looking at the specs to see if it says anything
about the feature, there or not there.  I'm not seeing anything.  This
is what I'm looking at. 

https://www.seagate.com/files/www-content/datasheets/pdfs/exos-x16-DS2011-1-1904US-en_US.pdf

Can someone tell me how to know when a drive has PWDIS and when it
doesn't?  Is there some term for it that shows in the specs and I'm
missing it?  Or is there no way to really know? 

Thanks. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

[Rich Freeman]

I'm looking at buying another drive. I'm trying to avoid buying one
with the PWDIS pin. I'm looking at the specs to see if it says anything
about the feature, there or not there. I'm not seeing anything. This
is what I'm looking at.
https://www.seagate.com/files/www-content/datasheets/pdfs/exos-x16-DS2011-1-1904US-en_US.pdf
Can someone tell me how to know when a drive has PWDIS and when it
doesn't? Is there some term for it that shows in the specs and I'm
missing it? Or is there no way to really know?

I think it would be labeled as such. That is for a genuine retail
version of the drive with retail labeling.

So if you get the drive and it has the pretty Exos logo and green
colors and the model number that matches the datasheet and all that
stuff, then it probably won't have issues.

However, if you're buying something off ebay, and the drive just has a
plain white label, and a model number that doesn't actually match the
datasheet, but some random webpage or reddit post assures you that it
is the same thing, well, it probably is the same thing, but it might
very well have that power issue.

Those shucked drives generally come from USB enclosures, and the drive
on the inside might be a rebranded Exos with alternative firmware/etc,
but the label isn't going to actually say that, and the package will
say "EasyStore USB Drive" or whatever it is sold as. If you use it
the way it is sold, then you again won't have issues since its
internal USB HBA will do the right thing. It is just that when you
rip open the box that all bets are off.

The actual drives sold for enterprise use generally aren't sold in
retail packaging as I understand it. To get one of those officially
you need to buy them through a server vendor or some other
enterprise-oriented partner, who probably has a nice sales person who
will treat you to a free lunch while you talk about the PWDIS
requirements of the $10M pallet of drives you're about to buy.

[Mark Knecht]

On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 2:12 PM Dale <***@gmail.com> wrote:
<SNIP>

Post by Dale
Can someone tell me how to know when a drive has PWDIS and when it
doesn't? Is there some term for it that shows in the specs and I'm
missing it? Or is there no way to really know?

I believe PWDIS is part of the SATA 3.3 spec so first filter would be
don't buy a SATA 3.3 drive for an old PC.

I have done NO online research to take this with less than a
grain of salt.

Mark

[Mark Knecht]

Post by Mark Knecht
<SNIP>

Post by Dale
Can someone tell me how to know when a drive has PWDIS and when it
doesn't? Is there some term for it that shows in the specs and I'm
missing it? Or is there no way to really know?

I believe PWDIS is part of the SATA 3.3 spec so first filter would be
don't buy a SATA 3.3 drive for an old PC.
I have done NO online research to take this with less than a
grain of salt.
Mark
Your reply gave me a clue. I did a search for sata in the docs and found

this for both drives I linked to in other post.

Post by Mark Knecht
Exos X18 SATA drives incorporate connectors which enable users to hot

plug these drives in accordance with the

Post by Mark Knecht
Serial ATA Revision 3.3 specification.
I suspect that means it has the PWDIS pin. You agree? If you open the

links to pdf docs in other reply, search for "Hot-Plug compatibility" and
see what it says. It was the second hit for me.

Post by Mark Knecht
Why can't they label those drives with something that makes it clear.

Print 'SATA V3.3', 'hardware reset enabled' or something that makes it easy
instead of sticking it in a 50 something page document. At least we have
the "find" feature on most pdf viewers. Another option, throw a adapter in
the box for those who can't have that feature.

Post by Mark Knecht
Looks like both drives I'm looking at might not work for me. My goal in

this thread, figure out what to look for so that I avoid buying a drive
that don't work. I got the difference in the power cable at least. Now to
figure it out without being able to see the drive.

Post by Mark Knecht
Thoughts?
Dale
:-) :-)
I thought of something else. I looked at drives I bought in the past. I

have a model ST16000NM000J and it works but it says it is SATA v3.3. So,
saying it is SATA v3.3 doesn't distinguish between having or not having the
PWDIS feature. It just means it is possible.

Post by Mark Knecht
Crap. I thought I was onto something. :(
Dale
:-) :-)
P. S. Since I have one of those already, I'll buy that one again. ROFL

Dale,
You have raised a number of issues. I will speak as a retired Silicon
Valley engineer who worked on IEEE and PCI-related specifications.
(PCI-X, 1394b and a few things that never made it to market)

1) Probably most important, the disk drive manufacturers are not
focused on those of us who fiddle with old hardware. They are
designing and developing products for the mass market which
basically means new machines. These drives do into data farms
and new computers.

2) The next issue is whether a new SATA-3.3 drive is even intended
to work in a machine running old SATA spec. In the case of these
SATA-3.3 drives there is a kluge connector/adapter cable that hooks
to your existing SATA controller but has a PC power supply dongle
so that the SATA-3.3 drive's PWDIS pin is 'hopefully' driven
correctly. Whether that works does depend on the timing of your
motherboard and the power supply, but it 'hopefully' works.

I don't know if this information is going to be helpful to your
immediate situation but possibly it will help you going forward
when you are considering upgrading an old machine vs what
I have done a couple of times is to purchase a new or used
low-end motherboard so that my peripheral choices were
easier. (Such as now all of my DNS and Pi-Hole stuff running
on an RP-5 vs an old x86-64 machine.)

Best wishes and good luck,
Mark

[Mark Knecht]

I've looked for a adapter. I couldn't find one. That's why I connected

to a old rig that had a set of molex cables I could use. Luckily I had a
molex to sata adapter. Do you know what they are called so I know what to
search for? I'd buy a dozen or so just to have extras laying around. I
just can't find them. I suspect I'm using the wrong search terms.

Do new motherboards support that PWDIS feature? I'm looking at the ASUS

Prime X670-P mobo and I can't find anything that says what version of SATA
it has or about the PWDIS option. I assume it doesn't have it but assuming
means you can be wrong. I haven't looked at the new power supply cables
yet. I've bought ATX style ones recently tho. Look the same as old ones
to me.

Dale
:-) :-)

I am not sure but I think Molex to SATA Power gets you in the ballpark?

https://www.amazon.com/Power-Cable-Adapter-Female-8-inch/dp/B07BQFKTG7

https://www.amazon.com/Duttek-Female-Adapter-Connector-Drives/dp/B09BJ1J24M

If these are close then it wouldn't cost a lot to try one out. (<$10)

[Mark Knecht]

Post by Mark Knecht

I've looked for a adapter. I couldn't find one. That's why I

connected to a old rig that had a set of molex cables I could use. Luckily
I had a molex to sata adapter. Do you know what they are called so I know
what to search for? I'd buy a dozen or so just to have extras laying
around. I just can't find them. I suspect I'm using the wrong search
terms.

Post by Mark Knecht

Do new motherboards support that PWDIS feature? I'm looking at the

ASUS Prime X670-P mobo and I can't find anything that says what version of
SATA it has or about the PWDIS option. I assume it doesn't have it but
assuming means you can be wrong. I haven't looked at the new power supply
cables yet. I've bought ATX style ones recently tho. Look the same as old
ones to me.

Post by Mark Knecht

Dale
:-) :-)

I am not sure but I think Molex to SATA Power gets you in the ballpark?
https://www.amazon.com/Power-Cable-Adapter-Female-8-inch/dp/B07BQFKTG7

https://www.amazon.com/Duttek-Female-Adapter-Connector-Drives/dp/B09BJ1J24M

Post by Mark Knecht
If these are close then it wouldn't cost a lot to try one out. (<$10)

Sorry, I forgot to address your second question.

It is my understanding - good or bad I'll leave it to you - that newer
motherboards
are moving toward drive power supplied through the motherboard and not
through our old-style power supply cables. I don't think this is in the
market
yet in any big way, but when it arrives it would allow PWDIS to be
controlled through
software which then makes it easier to do 'hot swap' because the drive
isn't hot
when power is disabled. I suspect this is more of a server farm type issue
and
desktop machine users wouldn't be doing this because the form factor of the
machine itself isn't set up for that. However if you were to get some sort
of a
drive cage which you connected to using wider SATA specifications then you
could
disable power to one drive and swap it out without having to power the
machine down.

All supposition on my part. I'll leave it to you to dig deeper if you care.
(I don't !)

Best wish, good luck and happy hunting,
Mark

[m***@tutanota.com]

I have a lot of drives like that.  Simplest solution is to cut the orange wire on the drive power cable.  Only down side is that some ssd may require the 3.3V power so you might not want to modify all the power cables.  I just had to do this so my sas drives would spin up.  Before I did it the drives didn't even show up in the bios.  (and I just got 10 of these used, they are going into a raid 6 array+spares).  I've been making this mod for over 10 years.

--"Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing the people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege." Tommy Douglas

Post by Dale

Post by Dale
Now to avoid buying another one of these drives again.  I really wish
sellers who should know would put in the description or list of features
that the drive has PWDIS.  After all, most buyers of small quantities of
drives likely can't use that feature.  The ones who do likely buy in
bulk since they putting them in large systems. 
Thanks to all.  I knew there would be someone on this list who actually
had one of these things. 
Dale
:-)  :-) 

I'm looking at buying another drive.  I'm trying to avoid buying one
with the PWDIS pin.  I'm looking at the specs to see if it says anything
about the feature, there or not there.  I'm not seeing anything.  This
is what I'm looking at. 
https://www.seagate.com/files/www-content/datasheets/pdfs/exos-x16-DS2011-1-1904US-en_US.pdf
Can someone tell me how to know when a drive has PWDIS and when it
doesn't?  Is there some term for it that shows in the specs and I'm
missing it?  Or is there no way to really know? 
Thanks. 
Dale
:-)  :-)